Zitat von bass-tard

@Haini

weist du überhaupt was ein Jedi ist?

tut mir echt leid aber dein Eröffnungspost ist grauenhaft

Zitat von Haini

Ja . Sowas wie ein Roboter wo sein Ziel erfüllen muss egal was passiert..... ( genau so handeln jedi)

Zitat von Klive

Ich weiß, es gehört hier eigentlich nicht rein...aber es heißt "Überleben des am besten Angepassten". Das Überleben des Stärken ist lediglich der Blödsinn, der im Sozialdarwinismus daraus gemacht wurde, hat also absolut nichts mit der Natur zu tun.

Zitat von StylesStarflier

Die meisten von uns sollten ja wissen auf welcher Seite des Politischen Spektrums die Vetreter des Sozialdarwinismus stehen

Zitat von Palomydes

Wo ist hier also Gut und Böse? Ob Jedi oder Sith, beide sehen sich auf der richtigen Seite.

Zitat von DanielErickson

An interesting thread. I always like to see what responses the philosophical discussions provoke. Hopefully people noticed that there were no quotes from me saying the Sith were good--even the interviewer ended on it being an excuse to unleash one’s hate. It was a clever title masking a more complex truth, which is that morality is shaped by culture and people. Genocide, slavery, human sacrifice and more horrific wars against people who have different beliefs than can be easily counted have all been part of the human experience and to my knowledge not one culture has ever stood up and said “We’re doing this because we’re terrible people.”

If you were raised in a culture that believed that an all-knowing god chose one man to rule over all others and passed that right through their bloodline, it would not seem odd, evil or tyrannical to you that there was, in fact, a king who fulfilled that role. Similarly if you were raised to think an entire group of people were marked as superior by their abilities (the Force in the case of the Empire) as to be above the law in the same way it would seem as natural as the aristocracy did for thousands of years of human history. If you were one of those privileged people and were taught to embrace your most base emotions, to take whatever you could grab by strength of arms or scheme and wit, that it was your ambition and lack of restraint that brought you freedom and purity…

You see where I’m going with this. It’s important to realize that while no amount of a dark side embracing Sith justifying himself to us (if for some reason you could get one to deign to do so) would convince us that he was a good person (he is after all pro-hate and pro-murder along with being anti-restraint), he does not see himself through our filter or he could not be who he is. Nor does the Empire as a whole see itself as the Republic sees it. If it did any stories told from that side would lack depth or compelling drama. “So, Darth Evil, it seems like we’re in the wrong here…” “Yes, Admiral. We are. We’re very bad people. My mother is extremely disappointed in me.”

Storytelling is about conflict and the conflict between ideologies and cultural perspective gives us some of the richest material to work from.

Zitat von DanielErickson

Hey Folks,

First of all, let me say that I love this thread. It always makes me smile to see people really digging into the setting and thinking about how it works together. Star Wars has a fascinating universe that is almost fairy tale simple on the surface and endlessly complex underneath. There is room for exceptions to every rule and variations on every theme. But in the interest of time, I'll keep this post to the general. The rule, not the exception.

Sith are evil.

The Sith philosophy is evil and encourages evil in its participants. We can get into endless philosophical discussions about whether anything is actually evil or actually good but if we are speaking from our modern, western view on the concept of evil then the Sith clearly qualify. They are encouraged to put the personal over the group, power over compassion and to judge everything's worthiness to survive on its ability to fight for that survival. Mercy, sympathy, generosity, these are seen as weaknesses. Anger and rage are seen as strengths. These are not people most of us want to work with or have as neighbors.

That does not mean, however, that the Sith see themselves as evil.

In our own world, slavery as something that is inherently evil is something the majority of the world has agreed about only in the most recent centuries. Imperialism, expansion through conquest, the rights of the few to rule the many because of birthright - these are things that our world's cultures have accepted as the natural order for a far larger percentage of history than they have rejected them.

In the Star Wars universe, followers of the Sith philosophy genuinely believe that these things we deem evil, are actually in the best interests of a society. They look at the disorder, corruption and infighting of the Republic and they scoff. "What those people lack," an Imperial thinks, "is strong leadership."

It's important to remember that movements towards freedom normally come during the reign of weak, distracted, or greedy rulers who are not providing for their people. The Sith Empire has had 1000 years under an Emperor who rebuilt them from almost nothing, led them in conquest and glory against their neighbors, returned the Empire to power and then led them in revenge against the Republic. A Republic who had previously attempted to eliminate the Empire's entire existence because of their beliefs. If this was ancient Rome the vast majority of the people would throw the Emperor a victory parade, not ask for representational government.

It's equally important to remember that you don't have to believe in any of this to play on the Empire's side in The Old Republic. You can be the exception to the rule. You are merely making a choice to be someone who was born on that side of the fence. Or, in the case of the Bounty Hunter, someone who tends to work in that part of space. The light side Sith who works tirelessly to make his Empire a better place is a deeply compelling character. The pragmatic Agent who wants nothing more than to protect the millions non-Sith citizens from harm is equally interesting. The Bounty Hunter gets to be his own man and spit right in the face of anyone who he doesn't agree with. Being a good man in a bad place is one of the all time great role-playing options.

So when you roll a character on the Empire side you're going to hear the arguments about why the war is important. You're going to feel the anger of a people who were told they didn't have the right to exist and were chased out of known space. You're going to see the culture that created and maintains their hierarchy and strange form of order. And you're going to make a choice about how much or how little of it your character wants to believe. Then you're going to start making choices. That's when it gets hard.

Hope that helps!
Daniel

Zitat von DanielErickson

Hey folks,

Easy to give the official answer. But first let's make sure we're all on the same page. Cultures change over time. They move one way then another, values shift, influxes of new peoples or discoveries change what is considered normal, etc. So if we're strictly talking about TOR then arguments based on things that happened thousands of years earlier or later aren't really applicable except to compare and contrast. Our views on modern marriage are not those of ancient Rome, and I doubt in 3,000 years they will be the same. So let's talk about where Jedi and Sith during the time period of The Old Republic.

For the last two hundred years the Jedi Order has been getting steadily more conservative. The liberalization that was necessary to restock the Jedi's numbers in the century after the events of Knights of the Old Republic II is now looked back on as a necessary evil. In the time that followed there were a number of terrible Dark Jedi who emerged as warlords and worse.

The two factors that showed up the most often in analysis of what caused Jedi to fall were unorthodox training methods and romantic entanglements. Thus in the following centuries training became more orthodox, with a return to the Jedi Order's earlier traditions. Which Masters were allowed to train padawans (and which could train more than one at once) became more restrictive and romance became one of the most guarded against emotional weakness. As the game opens it is possible to get married as a Jedi but it requires a lengthy process of approval including from the Jedi Council itself. A couple must prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they are both able to handle the strain romantic couples can endure. All children of Jedi are taken from them and raised by the Jedi as a whole, the same as other Force users in the Republic.

For the last thousand years the Sith Empire has needed stability and growth more than anything else. That means alliances that prevent power struggles. It means encouraging the creation of more children. Which in turn means marriage and a focus on family.

Where once the individual was judged largely alone, bloodlines are now incredibly socially important. A Sith from a long line of powerful Sith will find his path through the Academy easier, his opportunities increased. A family with no Force-users who suddenly find themselves with a Force-sensitive child will sacrifice everything they have to get them martial training and mental discipline coaches - for if that child passes the Academy and becomes Sith the entire family will rocket to the penultimate social class in Imperial society, side by side with moffs and governors, second only to Sith themselves.

Marriage among the Sith is usually between only two people and is often to forge a political alliance. Marriages of love do happen often among the lower ranked Sith but decrease the closer the Lord is to the top of the pyramid-shaped power structure. Marriages between Sith and non-Sith are rare as the Sith believe it dilutes the chance of a Force-sensitive offspring. It is a common, though unspoken of practice, for Sith parents to kill a non Force-sensitive offspring and deny it ever existed, claiming the baby was stillborn, etc. A Sith with openly non Force-sensitive offspring is believed to be admitting the thinness of the blood in his or her family line.

Adultery is common among the Sith but officially illegal. Divorce is strongly frowned upon but killing one's spouse for adultery or any other provable offense is socially acceptable. The one time you see obligatory divorce is when a member of the Dark Council breaks a couple apart to stop the assimilation of too much power in one place.

Hope that helps!

Daniel Erickson

Zitat von Kamajii

nur weil der herr DE des so sieht und "festlegt" heist des nit das alle anderen des auch so sehen müßen, wenn mans genau nimmt sollte man sich zur klärung dieser frage an den erschaffer wenden

edit: p.s. habt ihr alle nix zu tun, diese ewig langen texte liest sich doch kaum einer durch...

Zitat von Anxifer

„Das Gute hängt vom Blickwinkel des Betrachters ab. Die Sith und die Jedi, Anakin, gleichen sich in fast sämtlichen Belangen...“
— Palpatine

soviel dazu

Zitat von Kaffeebohne

Ich möchte kurz noch etwas einwerfen, was mir grade in den Sinn gekommen ist: Viele hardgesottene Star Wars Lore Veteranen werden sich darauf einstellen müssen, dass ingame vieles nicht zu ihrem Gutdünken ablaufen wird. Dies hat einfach damit zu tun, dass neben Star Wars Fans auch genügend MMO Spieler in das Universum eintauchen werden, welche nicht so bewandert sind (loretechnisch).

Allerdings möchte ich zu bedenken geben, dass dies auch durchaus interessant sein kann. Natürlich gibt es einen Kanon und natürlich hat GL gewisse Standard gesetzt, welche die Kohärenz dieses Universums ausmachen. Aber: Unerfahrenheit kann etwas produktives sein und die Welt lebendiger gestalten. Nirgends steht geschrieben, dass die Community die Saga nicht weiter erzählen darf, und zwar ganz nach eigenem Belieben. Ich sage das nur, da ich in dieser Diskussion diese zwei Pole, welche zweifelsohne ingame vertreten sein werden, schon jetzt spüre. Und im Sinne eines angenehmen Zusammenlebens scheint mir dieser Gedanke doch förderlich

Zitat von Anxifer

„Das Gute hängt vom Blickwinkel des Betrachters ab. Die Sith und die Jedi, Anakin, gleichen sich in fast sämtlichen Belangen...“
— Palpatine

soviel dazu

Zitat von Shadowskin

Die Ureinwohner Amerikas hätten zu dem Satz wahrscheinlich gesagt : " Weißer runzliger Mann spricht mir gespaltener Zunge..." so oder ähnlich Stand es früher immer in Lucky Luke Heften wenn jemand lügt, bzw. sagt was jemand gerade hören will

Zitat von Anxifer

Also mich hat er damit überzeugt

Ne aber mal im ernst, Jedi und Sith das sind zwei stark unterschiedliche Lebensphilosophien nur jemand der absolut unbeteidigt ist könnte vllt. beurteilen was richtig und falsch, gut und böse ist.
Und so jemand würde bestimmt sagen das beide Seiten die falschen Ansichten haben.

Zitat von Targyrien

Mich würde interessieren, ob hier einige Leute, ungeachtet ihrer favorisierten Rolle, wirklich glauben, die Sith wären gut?

Zitat von Kamajii

ich spiel in erster linie den char so wie er gedacht ist, in dem fall einen sith der seine ziel konsequent verfolgt, ungeachtet der rolle würde ich sagen, gut sind die sith nicht aber eben auch nicht das personifizierte böse, ihnen geht es, wenn man es auf den punkt bringt, einzig und allein in der auslöschung der jedi, selbiges gilt aber auch für diese, die jedi wollen die sith ebenfalls auslöschen, und genau das ist der grund warum beide seiten von der bevölkerung mistrauig beäugt werden, keine seite hinterlässt einen positiven eindruck.

Zitat von Targyrien

Die Jedi achten alles Leben, in jeder Form.[/B]
.

Zitat von Kamajii

... ungeachtet der rolle würde ich sagen, gut sind die sith nicht aber eben auch nicht das personifizierte böse...

Zitat von Shadowskin

Dazu muss ich Dir sagen

Ich werde so spielen wie es mir Spaß macht. Natürlich achte ich drauf das ich mein Umfeld nicht irgendwie belästige, z.b Rumhüpfen und Emote Spam solche scherze wird es bei mir nicht geben.

Aber ich lasse mir auch nicht von irgendwem diktieren wie ich zu spielen habe und das sollte keiner tun.
Wenn ich z.b. eine Jedi spiele und ich treffe eine Gildenfreundin oder so, und ich würde weil Sie irgendwas gemacht hat nen "erröten" Emote oder so machen, ist das jetzt zwar vielleicht nicht Rollengerecht, aber wer sich an sowas aufhängt hat meiner Meinung nach echt schwerwiegende Probleme....

Anstand und Höflichkeit muss einfach ausreichen.

Zitat von Elte

Also jetzt soll noch mal einer sagen Jedi sind nicht gut und Sith sind nicht böse